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Was Muhammad Ali cryopreserved (frozen) like Ted Willams? There's enough "chatter from the past" to consider it. [PALM Blog-post about Ali's possible cryonic preservation by Rick][Threaded discussion forum "TW Talk" will pick up where the PALM Blog-page left off]

Saturday, June 4, 2016

Was Muhammed Ali frozen like Ted Williams?

If Muhammed Ali was frozen at Alcor in Scottsdale-- a sub-section of the Greater Phoenix area-- then he will now be one of the most famous people ever to have been involved in cryogenics (cryonics)-- along with Ted Williams. Rick Potvin was a member of Alcor at the time of Ted Williams' death and cryogenic preservation in 2001 and single handedly discovered that Ted was frozen as a head-only rather than a whole body.  Rick was blamed, by Alcor, for an entire second round of Ted Williams publicity in 2002 over this situation. Rick is no longer a member but remains interested in the cryonics industry and is tuned into the essential features of discovering what celebrities are being frozen. It is now his opinion that Muhammed Ali has be cryogenically frozen.


My cursory overview of google results on this line of thought began this morning when it occurred to me that it be strange that Ali was dying in a Phoenix hospital. I had never before heard of Ali being in Phoenix-- where I've lived in 1995. The fact that he was-- tripped a mental relay I have associated with cryonics, of course-- since cryonics was the original motivation for me being here since Alcor relocated in Scottsdale, a section of Greater Phoenix. 

I googled Ali to find what hospital he would be at-- but all reports failed to report his location other than "a hospital in Phoenix". Barrow Neuro. is a possibility since his reported demise came from Parkinsons.  As I mulled it over, it seemed to me that that the few reports I found of Ali being interested in cryonics along with Larry King and Michael Jackson would be enough for me to drive over to the Alcor lab and see how many cars were in the parking lot on Saturday night, about a day after Ali's death. Alas, I couldn't make the arrangement. Oh well-- I would be left with pure speculation-- which people in cryonics know me for. After all, I had exposed the fact that Ted was a head rather than a whole body suspension. 


I'll include little research leads that I used as I write this blog. Here's the first one...


I'm not too shocked to hear that Muhammad Ali is interested in being cryogenically frozen. He apparently visited a cryonics lab at UC Berkeley in 1988. "It's only ...

www.nydailynews.com/.../ali-face-struggle-parkinson-disease-article-1. 2660640
10 hours ago ... In fight against Parkinson's, Muhammad Ali became the face of the debilitating ... Gone was the mega-watt smile — Ali's face appeared frozen.

3 hours ago ... Muhammad Ali died Friday at age 74, according to a spokesman for his ... his face frozen, the man who invented the Ali Shuffle now barely able ...

19 hours ago ... Boxer Muhammad Ali weighs in a week before his heavyweight bout with ..... Shaking, his face frozen by a Parkinson's mask, this was a new ...

indianexpress.com/.../muhammad-ali-dies-at-74-boxing-muhammad-ali- knockout-2833850/
7 hours ago ... With his face nearly frozen from the disease and his hands trembling, Ali lit the Olympic torch for the 1996 Atlanta Games in a performance as ..

There are several reports above of Ali's face being "frozen" due to Parkinson's. I've never heard that Parkinson's freezes a face. Is this an oblique reference to insiders who know he's been frozen cryogenically?--Rick

Feb 29, 2012 ... They had come to honor The Greatest, though whether Muhammad Ali remembered who they were or knew what it was all about was a matter ...


Jan 12, 1992 ... Why would Muhammad Ali secretly visit a Berkeley laboratory full of scientists whose ultimate goal is to bring frozen humans back from th

I'm not too shocked to hear that Muhammad Ali is interested in being cryogenically frozen. He apparently visited a cryonics lab at UC Berkeley in 1988. "It's only ...

Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali Pin itShareTweet. Ali has long been interested in the science of cryogenics. Back in 1988, he visited a lab located at UC ...

Jul 8, 2013 ... Muhammad Ali: The former boxing champ is known to have explored the possibility of a much longer future. He began looking into cryonics in ...

Jul 18, 2002 ... Cryonics effectively involves having your dead body or brain placed in ... in cryonics, including Walt Disney, actor Peter Sellers, Muhammed Ali ...

Dr. Avi Ben- Abraham says that he has met with "very powerful people" concerning cryonics: Michael Jackson, for one; Muhammad Ali, for another. "This is very ...

I've had offers of exclusive interviews before and I have to decide between 5 and 3. It was 5 who interviewed me about the Chinese dignataries visiting Golden Buddha a few years ago so I'll start with them.

UPDATE 6:35 Phx time MST
Eric at 5 informed me that 3 and 5 are the same company now and game me an email phxnewsdesk@meredith.com to send a link to this post to. He said was on duty until 10 p.m tonight so as I work my way through meal time, I'll try to update him on this page so that quite possibly we could see something on 3 and 5 tonight. (ERIC-- you have my permission to use my name as the lead--rick potvin).

PHOTO OF RICK AT ALCOR in the late 1990's

Rick Potvin is the guy in the white shirt 4th from the right.


Jul 18, 2002 ... Cryonics effectively involves having your dead body or brain placed in ... in cryonics, including Walt Disney, actor Peter Sellers, Muhammed Ali ...

In addition to Ted Williams, a number of other notable figures have reportedly expressed an interest in cryonics, including Walt Disney, actor Peter Sellers, Muhammed Ali and authors Gore Vidal and Arthur C Clarke.

DISCUSSION FORUM by Rick Potvin now includes updates on Muhammed Ali's possible unverified cryonic preservation-- click on the following link
Rick Potvin's Cryonics-for-Connectomes Commentary

TED the HEAD 2002 - 
Rick Potvin discovered Ted was a head and not a whole body patient. He was advised by THIS MAN to not say anything. Eventually it came out anyway and Rick provided cooberating evidence that Ted was a head. IS MUHAMMAD ALI PRESERVED AS A HEAD OR WHOLE BODY? Most of Alcor's "patients" are Head-only. The odds are 50/50 that Muhammad is a head in Rick's estimation. Better preseveration was possible 15 years ago when the head only (cephalic preservation) was done with vitrification. It's possible the whole body can be vitrified today with complete connectome preservation. Connectomes are a whole other issue.

COINCIDENCE: Little Ceasar's Pizza starts new ad campaign with isolated heads.

Could this be an insider's joke that relays the reality of Ali joining Ted Williams, as a head, in cryogenics? 

Jun 5, 2016: 
TW Talk, ted williams, Ettinger, cryocide:

Sun., Jun 5, 2016
LOCAL PHOENIX 5 & 3 NEWS COVERS ALI but no reference to cryonics yet.
When I phoned 5, I got "Eric" who informed me that 3 is now owned by the same company as 5. (This is rather shocking but I'll comment on that later). I watched the local 5 news and they covered some local news about Ali in Phoenix and referred to SCOTTSDALE and Barrow Neuro. PAlcor is also in Scottsdale. Previous news reports referred only to "a hospital in Phoenix". 

There are a confusing number of references to Barrow on a first search on Google from my end. It seems there are numerous clinics in the Pheonix area.
barrow neurological scottsdale - Google Search

Barrowneuro.org seems to be a key site and refers to Ali!
The Muhammad Ali Parkinson Center Mourns the Loss of its Namesake | Barrow


  In contrast, it is not clear what the policies of ACS are in these
    matters.  Avi Ben-Abraham is not just a friend of Muhammad Ali; he
    is also an ACS officer (president).  It would be very interesting
    to know whether Ali really did give permission for his name to be
    publicly associated with cryonics....
 He confirmed that he is a close
personal friend of Muhammed Ali and felt confident that Ali would not
object.  Hopefully this will put the Ali controversy behind us....



cryonet search  Sort By:  Relevance  Oldest First  Newest First         Help    Advanced
Stemmed Query = muhammad ali  
 Results 1 - 10 of 11 Search Time 0.000 Seconds 
Msg  Description
# 20142Re: Woody Allen, Liz Taylor & Michael Jackson signed up for [Stephen W. Bridge]
in Riverside, California, >alongside Elisabeth Taylor and Muhammad Ali. Of course, we cannot talk about which  (Mon, 23 Sep 2002, 2 KB)
# 643ACS vs. ALCOR [Edgar W. Swank]
Abraham is not just a friend of Muhammad Ali; he is also an ACS officer (president).  (Fri, 07 Feb 92, 5 KB)
# 618Prospect privacy and the "big fix" mentality [Russell E. Whitaker]
27 Jan 372 pno Message: #616 - Muhammed Ali To Sign Up With ACS Date: 24 . . . cryonics a believable idea. It states that Muhammad Ali is going to sign up with  (27 Jan 92 11:16:55, 3 KB)
# 628response to Whitaker [Edgar W. Swank]
in message 616 of a report that "Muhammad Ali is going to sign up with ACS..".  (Sun, 02 Feb 92, 4 KB)
# 616Re: cryonics: #594 - #595 [Hank Lederer]
cryonics a believable idea. It states that Muhammad Ali is going to sign up with ACS.." '  (24 Jan 92 23:27:21, 1 KB)
# 629ACS vs. Alcor [Brian Wowk]
Ben-Abraham is a personal friend of Ali, at least). I > think that it should . . . Abraham is not just a friend of Muhammad Ali; he is also an ACS officer (  (03 Feb 92 01:45:06, 2 KB)
# 630Re: cryonics: [hkhenson]
Russell Whitaker's somewhat intemperate remarks about Muhammad Ali's reported plans to sign up with  (Tue, 4 Feb 92, 3 KB)
# 19524More articles [Driven FromThePack]
7&page=4216278 Hmm....didn't know Muhammad Ali was a cryo-fan....pretty good article  (Tue, 16 Jul 2002, 1 KB)
# 20128Re: Woody Allen, Liz Taylor & Michael Jackson signed up for cryonics? [John de Rivaz]
in Riverside, California, alongside Elisabeth Taylor and Muhammad Ali. In the Cryonics Europe reproduction of The  (Sat, 21 Sep 2002, 2 KB)
# 11187Parkinson's disease is environmental in origin [Jan Coetzee]
Janet Reno, Pope John Paul II, boxer Muhammad Ali and actor Michael J. Fox. In recent  (Wed, 27 Jan 1999, 4 KB)
Msg  Description
# 22741MSNBC: Have we humans peaked as a species? [Mark Plus]
grocery to the supermarket; Sonny Liston to Muhammad Ali. Yet Friday, as the Concorde roars off  (Mon, 27 Oct 2003, 9 KB)
source: CRYONICS - ACS vs. ALCOR

Since Channel 5 didn't say a thing about Alcor on the 10pm news last night, it occurred to me that I might as well let SI and Wired know about my line of thought on this issue. I emailed both this morning. Sun. Jun 5, 2016 6:30 am. Phoenix AZ. Rick Potvin.

I emailed only a link to Wired-- to their general contact email address and a short paragraph to SI in their "tips" box that included an advisement to have their researcher check the alcor parking lot today for lots of cars since the cooldown process for Ali would still likely be in progress and if that's true then lots of Alcor insiders will be there. I can't be there today because of personal circumstances despite my living about 30 minutes away.

VIEWS for THIS BLOG ENTRY have shot up from 2 to 7 in the PAST HOUR
by Rick Potvin, Sun. Jun 5, 2016 @ 6:38 pm Phx MST

As blogger, I can check on the statistics of this blog from the edit controls. I can't make the number of unique views appears automatically on this entry. I'll post it from time to time. So far, I've emailed a link to this entry to Eric at local CBS 5 news, Wired and Sports Illustrated.  I haven't had any feedback and so far nothing has appeared on local news or national news. I've updated this entry and I've begun to time stamp the updates. If Ali has been cryopreserved, then it'll be as big a story as Ted Williams was in 2002/2003, now more than a dozen years ago.... time flies.

by Rick Potvin, Sun. Jun 5, 2016 @ 7:40 pm Phx MST

Rather than take time to write a blog post, I'll simply cut and paste the results of my searches over the past hour-- which are interesting in regards to Ali and cryonics.

COM> Subject: Re: cryonics: #594 - #595 [ personal correspondence removed - KQB ] On another ... It states that Muhammad Ali is going to sign up with ACS.

Subheading: Scientist works to make cryonics a believable idea.  It states that

Muhammad Ali is going to sign up with ACS.." 'It's only a matter of time before
Ali, who is fascinated by this emerging science of cryonics, will sign up 
himself for the procedure,' said (Avi) Ben-Abraham of Los Altos Hills, Calif."Subheading: Scientist works to make cryonics a believable idea.  It states that

Jul 23, 2001 ... Visiting Hong Kong in January of 1996, Avi Ben-Abraham quickly ... and pictures of Ben-Abraham with Muhammad Ali, Mikhail Gorbachev, .

Jan 12, 1992 ... Why would Muhammad Ali secretly visit a Berkeley laboratory full of scientists ... His guide was Avi Ben-Abraham, who promotes the practice of ...

Frozen For The Future -- Scientist Works To Make Cryonics A Believable Idea
Peninsula Times Tribune

BERKELEY, Calif. - Why would Muhammad Ali secretly visit a Berkeley laboratory full of scientists whose ultimate goal is to bring frozen humans back from the dead?
The former world heavyweight boxing champion toured such a laboratory in May 1988 at the University of California at Berkeley.
His guide was Avi Ben-Abraham, who promotes the practice of freezing the dead until the day medical science develops a way to heal and revive them.
"It's only a matter of time before Ali, who is fascinated by this emerging science of cryonics, will sign up himself for the procedure," said Ben-Abraham, of Los Altos Hills, Calif.
In addition to Ali, other notables have looked into cryonics, and many have taken the big liquid-nitrogen plunge. It has been reported that Malcolm Forbes and designer Halston made provisions before they died to have some of their tissues preserved for future cloning.

Dr. Avi Ben- Abraham says that he has met with "very powerful people" concerning cryonics: Michael Jackson, for one; Muhammad Ali, for another. "This is very .

View Avi Ben-Abraham's business profile as Founder at Ben-Abraham ... pictures of Dr Ben-Abraham showed him on apparently good terms with Muhammad Ali ...

Jan 4, 1992 ... Now, Avi Ben-Abraham envisions a world with no illness, where today's ... Why would Muhammad Ali secretly visit a Berkeley laboratory full of .


1. INTRODUCTION TO ALCOR by MAX MORE for visitors to this blog including a definition of stand-by in cryonics.


Interestingly, Cassius Clay sang "Stand by me" in 1963. The reader should understand that "STAND BY" is part of the critical care cycle in cryonics as cited by MAX MORE in the video just above! How ironic that Ali would have sung that way back then. If he WAS frozen by Alcor, then he WOULD have been in cryonics stand by mode for the past few days! 

3. The flipside was even funnier-- it's great! The rhythm is similar to Yakkaty Sax and he raps... before rap was invented, in 1963. His rap is legible however-- -not like today's rap.

ALI was at Scottsdale Osborn Medical, not Barrow Neuro... Osborn is near Alcor

www.latimes.com/la-remembering-muhammed-ali-world-react-from-outside- the-hospital-in-1465020653-htmlstory.html
21 hours ago ... The hospital where Muhammad Ali died, Scottsdale Osborn Medical ... guarded on a 102-degree night by a Phoenix police officer in blue shorts ...

11:10 P.M. Nigel Duara
The hospital where Muhammad Ali died, Scottsdale Osborn Medical Center, is a nondescript six-story beige building just west of the Scottsdale Stadium, where the San Francisco Giants play spring ball.

ALCOR PARKING LOT HAS 3 CARS today - Sun. Jun 5, 2016 2:00 pm... 115 F
It's hot out and my car can't run the A/C because the engine will get too hot--- since it's 115F out there in mid afternoon. The motor temp ran on the M of N-O-R-M-A-L and sometimes got up over the A. I drove around to the back of Alcor and parked for a few minutes to let the motor cool, while under a parking shade. There were only 3 cars there. I sat there for 5 minutes and thought I'd better leave. There was no activity. Three cars would be normal for a typical cool-down but I would think that there would be hangers on around if Ali were there in cooldown mode for cryonics. It's hard to say either way. I stopped at Jack in the Box on Scottsdale Rd for iced mocha and onion rings while letting the car cool down further. Conclusion: Inconclusive but no excitement, no press, no gathering of insiders. If Ali is there, it's being kept very well under wraps.

I'm done researching this. It'll be up to the search engines and other media to find this page and run with it now. I've emailed a few media outlets links to this page. It's up to them to run this idea out there and see if there's anything to it. I'm personally....

So far, nothing in the mainstream media shows that anyone has picked this idea up. Nothing on any search of any forum or news website either, no matter how obscure. Again, as with my discovery that Ted was a head, I'm possibly first over the line in discovering, through my process of reasoning, that Ali could very well be cryopreserved (frozen, in popular language). 

I noted on mainstream news last night *Fox, that his body was shipped back to his hometown with the news piece showing a casket. It remains to be seen if there will be an open casket funeral. That may offer more circumstantial evidence one way or another. I looked once more at Seattle Times archives which noted the Ali fascination with cryonics and clicked on their facebook button. I submitted a short report as follows-- which disappeared under the label-- your post needs to be approved before posting. Great. If THEY don't run with this, then I don't think anyone will since they ran the story in 1992. 

My observation is merely a follow up in that context. I MAY go to Peninsula Time Tribune wherever that is. 

As well, the Berkeley Lab mentioned is actually TransTime/American Cryonics Society which is currently trying to find someone t help them raise funds with crowdfunding. It was posted 6 days ago. Ali died June 3, which is now 3 days ago as of this writing on June 6. The media was reporting that Ali was dying BEFORE his death was announced however-- POSSIBLY 3 days before which puts TransTime's fundraising campaign start on that same time frame as the first announcement of Ali's illness as being grave. Coincidence? I dunno. I don't call or write anyone in cryonics anymore because all of them went into the "cannot confirm nor deny anything" mode decades ago. 

WIKIPEDIA POINTS TO JUNE 2 as key-- so 6 days ago on the 6th of June would be June 1-- the DAY BEFORE he was hospitalized in Scottsdale, near Alcor.
Ali was hospitalized in Scottsdale on June 2, 2016, with a respiratory illness. Though his condition was initially described as "fair", his condition worsened and he died the following day, aged 74, from septic shock.[86][87][88][89]

Cryonics company needs experienced crowdfunding consultant

We are a small cryonics company called Trans Time, Inc. located in San Leandro, CA. Please Google us to find out a little bit more before reading further.


Here again, is the article in Seattle Times that refers to that company as being the one that Ali visited in 1992. 

Here is the link to the Seattle Times facebook page where I posted an introduction to this idea -- which post has not yet been approved as of this report.


TRANS TIME (the Berkeley lab associated with freezing humans and being visited my MUHAMMAD ALI -- pointed to in the 1992 Seattle Times / Peninsula Time Tribune article) POSTED A CROWD FUNDING EXPERT REQUEST 1 DAY BEFORE ALI WAS HOSPITALIZED IN SCOTTSDALE NEAR ALCOR CRYONICS LAB. 
Rick says-- NOTICE the POSTING TIME-- May 30... which is actually 3 days before Ali was hospitalized in Scottsdale on June 2.  That's close enough to warrant significance I think. It's just speculation on my part since there were earlier stories about Ali having serious problems in 2014 and 2015... so the problem might have been taking a turn for the worse by May 30 2016-- at which time someone at TransTime/ACS might be motivated to start fundraising in relation to Ali-- which would involve another series of my wild speculations regarding how process is being financed... but setting that aside.... I would say the TIMING here is of interest. NOTE TOO... the UPDATE to the TRANS TIME request for the expert-- is JUNE 5, 10:29 p.m.... just last night. So this is "on". 

HOMEPAGE for TransTime

FACEBOOK page TransTime where I might post a link to this page for their consideration....
Trans Time, Inc.

My post to the TT page appears instantly.... as above on the left side column at just under the gridwork of photos. I don't expect a definitive response but poking around might yield a clue. TransTime has a history with Muhammad Ali and it would be incumbent on them to at least comment on Ali-- since Ali DID visit the lab. But that's my opinion-- which is not in demand, to say the least, in the cryonics industry.


A nod of thanks to the responder in the Trans Time visitor comment box for the response regarding Ali.

What this response tells me is that that policy of neither confirming nor denying anything is still in place in the cryonics industry as a whole AND the nature of the ambiguous response LEANS towards a favorable situation where Ali WAS indeed "caught" by cryonics. The essence of the response involves the "...he was!..." if extracted and taken out of context.... as a helpful clue. The exclamation mark was extra-- which indicates an affirmation and some degree of true excitement. The worth "hope" is inserted so that can be associated with the "hope" that cryonics will work.

The TT secretary who wrote the response is unnamed personally and I don't expect them to officially confirm nor deny. There is no indication they read my blog entry but I will assure readers of this blog post that board members at Alcor, TT and CI will definitely be looking at what I've come up with here. TT's Facebook response is the first feedback I've recieved from numerous pitches to various media -- which is perfectly fitting since Ali visited TT originally in the Bay Area.

For those not involved in cryonics, I would explain that TT does not currently have a full standby and preservation capability as far as I know-- that work they have arranged somehow to contract with Alcor in Scottsdale.

I queried the mystery secretary at TT a little further, prodding them for another clue...

ALI'S CASKET and the FUNERAL: Cryonics Clues for Cryonics Sleuths like Me

I'll simply wait for things to occur to me as I view the upcoming funeral of Ali on June 10. My method of research often involves sitting back and waiting for revelations without even trying. It's likely related to my years of meditation using alpha brainwave tapes. So far, I have not noted any mortuary company in any of the press being interviewed about his casket. That could be because the mortician was Alcor. We'll see. This BLOG POST has had 32 VISITS so far. If I'm right and Ali was frozen like Ted, the page might go viral and hit 1000X that number in coming days and weeks.

UPDATE-- June 7, 2016 10:20 am. re: Casket
I'm not sure what I had in mind with respect to that last entry on Ali's casket. I must have been ruminating on the still photo that's been out there for days now, showing the airplane on the tarmac with the casket being unloaded. As it is, I noted that the color of the casket has changed from black to white to a sort of tan cross-hatched pattern case. This is an anomaly that could be consistent with the idea that he is not IN a casket at all and so different caskets have been used in media to illustrate Ali's body being moved-- when in fact he may already be in a cryonics dewar. Observe these photos of his casket I found on Bing image search.

by Rick Potvin @ 9 p.m. Mon. June 6, 2016 in Phoenix where it hit 120 F. today according to my own thermometer (are the local media misreporting temps as 113?)

Hi Eric-- I hadn't heard from you and decided to update my blog and contact other media. Sorry about that but I couldn't hold back. No mainstream news people have picked this angle up yet but that's understandable. I just thought that the local station in Phoenix might have have been able to get the early scoop. --rick potvin
On Sat, 6/4/16, Rick Potvin wrote:

 Subject: CRYOGENICS for Muhammad Ali?
 To: phxnewsdesk@meredith.com
 Date: Saturday, June 4, 2016, 9:29 PM
 Hi Eric, here my blog entry...(I
 haven't called any other media other than you)

by Rick Potvin @ 9 p.m. Mon. June 6, 2016 in Phoenix where it hit 120 F. today according to my own thermometer (are the local media misreporting temps as 113?)

A BIZARRE POST BY ALI'S DAUGHTER: "His heart just wouldn't stop beating".
by Rick Potvin on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:08 PM MST from Phoenix AZ @ 115F

Here are some of the many news headlines I found on a search this morning...

For The Win - USA Today - 3 days ago
Muhammad Ali's daughter on his passing: His heart wouldn't stop beating for 30 
minutes. FILE - In this Dec. 20, 1978, file photo, World ...
Huffington Post - 3 days ago
Daily Mail - 3 days ago

www.trendolizer.com/.../muhammad-alis-daughter-his-heart-wouldnt-stop- beating.html
"No one has ever seen anything like it." (via: trendolizer.com)

Rick: I'm reminded of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart". 

The Tell-Tale Heart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"The Tell-Tale Heart" is a short story by Edgar Allan Poe first published in 1843. It is told by an unnamed narrator who endeavors to convince the reader o

In our current tale, it turns out that Ali's daughter has possibly "confessed" to participation in a cryopreservation... motivated the same way as the confessed murderer in the Poe short story. She heard the beating heart. It haunted her so much that she tweeted it out, half horrified and partly screaming inside herself. I note that her twitter account no longer has that post. Perhaps she was advised to remove it since it advertises a most unusual death-- possibly a cryonics-designed death -- in which the conciousness was suppressed yet life support continued. Here's an excerpt from a cryonics forum... 

Nov 16, 2009 ... ... condition did it the first time (cancer, malnutrition, septic shock, whatever). ... Cryonics patients are given propofol to keep them from regaining ...

CPR Consciousness

November 16 2009 at 7:23 PM
Steve Harris  (Login StevenHarris)
Registered User

Response to 
I Don't Think Anyone Really Knows the Answer to That Question

Maxim: ''Personally, I think that, if oxygen is administered and a patient is revived, then ethically, everything has to be done, to keep that patient alive.''

COMMENT: What for? The whole point of hospice is to not deliver, or even withdraw, life supportive care. If a patient dies in hospice and is pronounced legally dead, and your CPR restarts their heart (very, very unlikely), you wouldn't be obligated to change your initial treatment plan from when they were alive. You'd simply be obligated to stop CardioPulmonary Resusciation (or support), CPR/S, and cryonics procedures, and wait for them to suffer cardiac arrest from whatever terminal condition did it the first time (cancer, malnutrition, septic shock, whatever). If the reasons for hospice were valid in the first place, an accidental resusciation doesn't change them.

Cryonics patients are given propofol to keep them from regaining consciousness with CPS, not to keep their heart from re-starting. Propofol has no little or no effect on the heart, and any effect it has on respiration is irrelevant since you're doing ventiliation on the patient anyway (and would presumably continue if the heart re-started and the patient had been heavily sedated). But again, worrying about cardiac restart without any attempt at defibrillation, is not realistic for elderly ill cryonics patients. It happens in healthy children, sometimes, but the chances of it happening in cryonics are extremely low. So far, we've never seen it.

We HAVE seen some movement of limbs in arrested patient undergoing CPS, suggesting that even our patients in cardiac arrest may be getting enough brain flow to possibly have some awareness. Nobody wants that. Nor does some brain function mean that a patient is legally alive. It's well-understood, that (except in the case of diagnosed brain death) that patients pronounced dead by cardiovascular criteria still have live and functional organs, and that this includes the brain (times for reported brain resuscitation even without pre-cooling are now being moved out past 20 minutes). Medico-legal death is not biological death! In fact, the difference between the two is the entire BASIS for cryonics. Anybody objecting that cryonics is being done on somebody legally dead but biologically still alive, is merely headed for a moment of epiphany. (Get their address and sent them some literature).

At this point somebody will say "I don't believe you about the consciousness and CPR." Reference, please? Okay:

Neurocrit Care. 2008;9(3):382-6.
Prolonged retention of awareness during cardiopulmonary resuscitation for
asystolic cardiac arrest.

Bihari S, Rajajee V.

Critical Care Unit, Apollo Hospitals, No. 21, Greams Lane, Chennai, 600 006,
Tamilnadu, India.

OBJECTIVE: To describe high level of awareness in a patient undergoing
cardiopulmonary resuscitation for an asystolic cardiac arrest and review the
literature regarding this phenomenon. METHODS: This is a case report of a patient
admitted to the Intensive Care Unit who suffered an asystolic cardiac arrest. We
reviewed MEDLINE using the terms "awareness," "consciousness," "cerebral
perfusion," "sedation," "analgesia," "termination," "cessation," and
"cardiopulmonary resuscitation." RESULTS: A 57-year-old man with renal failure
suffered asystolic cardiac arrest. He was awake and alert during cardiopulmonary
resuscitation (CPR). Cardiac arrest was confirmed by echocardiogram and invasive
arterial monitoring. He briskly localized and consistently followed simple
commands while chest compressions were in progress before becoming unresponsive
and dying after a 3-h resuscitative effort. No sedation/analgesia was used. There
are few reports in the literature describing similar events. CONCLUSION: It is
possible to retain a high level of awareness following cardiac arrest,
particularly with effective CPR. Recognition of this situation when it occurs
allows appropriate decisions to be made regarding the use of sedation and the
length of resuscitative efforts.

PMID: 18483881 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


COMMENT: There are other cases in the literature, of course. Note that the unfortunate patient in the case above had 3 hours of CPR while in cardiac arrest, was conscious a large fraction of the time, but could not be resuscitated. So he went through 3 hours of something that must have been extremely painful (as good CPR is) without any sedation-- a fact which the authors appear to feel a bit guilty about, and well they should. Sedation is not yet part of the protocol for ACLS, but we're beginning to see the beginnings of how it may be. There's another case report for 1999 where a similar patient died after several hours of CPR and awareness. This is a problem.

Cryonics is somewhat ahead of conventional medicine is thinking about it, at present. Go figure. wink.gif

Melody: "I think it's beyond stupid for cryonics organizations to be administering drugs like propofol, in light of the accusations that have been made, in the past, regarding "putting and keeping patients down." Cryonics standby teams, which often are comprised entirely of laymen, have no business even having this drug in their possession, in my opinion. Hell, most medical professionals working in hospitals aren't even allowed to touch it."

COMMENT: It's not a DEA "controlled substance," and so long as a prescription has been written to obtain it, anybody else can touch it, transfer it without prescription, and do whatever they want with it, as long as they don't practice medicine by doing so. Michael Jackson broke no rules in keeping the stuff (even if it wasn't prescribed for him). The reason the doctor in the Michael Jackson case can't be brought up on DEA charges is he broke no DEA rules, even though he had no California DEA licence. This confounded the authorities, who are having to bring him up (quite properly) on medical misconduct, malpractice, and general stupidity. But that was because he accidently killed a patient. However, this last is not a problem in cryonics. It's likely to be even less a problem if all cryonics CPS patients are sedated after cardiac arrest and pronouncement of death, so they never show signs of consciousness (which could be very confusing to onlookers).

The DEA status of propofol may change due to the Jackson case, and this may affect how it's obtained and used in cryonics, but it won't affect the ethics of using it CPS in cryonics. The science behind doing so is above, for those who think the whole idea is wacko.

I suppose that any cryonics patient can specify that propofol not be used on them (ouch, but it's up to you). But I certainly want it on my own cryopreservation initiation, if it's been less than 5 minutes between pronouncement and chest compression (after that it probably doesn't matter, and many cryonics cases have omitted the propofol).

Melody: "Since there has been evidence that cooling patients who have arrested, before administering oxygen, might be beneficial, and the cryonics organizations claim to be rapidly cooling, my inclination is to forget about the oxygen and cool as quickly as possible, in order to avoid accusations of murder, and conflicts with the legalities of administering oxygen and performing chest compressions on "DNR" patients, given the possibility of reviving them."

Again we disagree. DNR doesn't necessarily mean no CPS-- it means don't try to resuscitate (we don't). Chances of accidental resusciation without shock are not large enough to worry about, which is why only propofol is now used. A cryonicist Who Must Not Be Named once argued that potassium was necessary to prevent accidental resuscitation; I disagreed and this is why potassium is no longer part of the cryonics med package. Propofol would not be a very good murder drug, though it might be possible to use it that way. However, (as already noted) it's certainly not what you'd want to prevent accidental resuscitation.

The experience with organ banking is that some oxygen is always good, whether before, during, or after cooling. It's hyperoxia (what you get with 100% oxygen) which is not good for the brain. This is an argument for CPS with air, but not for no oxygen or CPS at all.

Steve Harris

This message has been edited by StevenHarris on Nov 18, 2009 8:24 PM

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Cryonics patients are given propofol to keep them from regaining consciousness with CPS, not to keep their heart from re-starting. Propofol has no little or no effect on the heart, and any effect it has on respiration is irrelevant since you're doing ventiliation on the patient anyway (and would presumably continue if the heart re-started and the patient had been heavily sedated). But again, worrying about cardiac restart without any attempt at defibrillation, is not realistic for elderly ill cryonics patients. It happens in healthy children, sometimes, but the chances of it happening in cryonics are extremely low. So far, we've never seen it. 

www.trendolizer.com/.../muhammad-alis-daughter-his-heart-wouldnt-stop- beating.html
"No one has ever seen anything like it." (via: trendolizer.com)


by Rick Potvin on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2016 at 2:08 PM MST from Phoenix AZ @ 115F

Yet another clue to Ali's possible cryopreservation popped out at me this morning as I read about Ali's book detailing his funeral plans. Who does that? I can see how a will might go on and on but this was not the will -- this was detailed FUNERAL plans. I thought about the stack of paperwork Alcor handed me when I signed up for cryonics. Could "The Book" be his cryonics paperwork along with the funeral plan? The descriptions of "The book" are at least consistent with a cryopreservation.

The inner circle that helped the Alis with funeral preparations included his attorney and a business associate, Gunnell said. The group presented "The Book" — about 2 inches thick with funeral details — to Ali in 2010, the family spokesman said.
www.foxnews.com/.../muhammad-ali-scripted-funeral-plans-in-exacting- detail-in-book.html
13 hours ago ... Muhammad Ali and his innermost circle started a document years ago that grew so thick they began calling it The Book.\\

Fox News
Fox News - 14 hours ago
Muhammad Ali and his innermost circle started a document years ago that grew 
so thick they began calling it "The Book." Its contents will soon ...
Daily Mail - 20 hours ago
Newser - 17 hours ago

12 hours ago ... Muhammad Ali and his innermost circle started a document years ago that grew so thick they began calling it "The Book."


Rick's comment-- Ali's "going over the entire plan" over the course of about week, "signing, certifying and approving it" sounds very much like what I and other cryonics members have to do to get fully signed up for cryonics. In fact, there are standing jokes in cryonics about how long and arduous the paperwork is. Here are just a few references to Alcor's paperwork for the reader's convenience in comparing what Gunnell said with the cryonics paperwork requirements.

    Alcor: Protecting Cryonics Arrangements


    Authorized medical power of attorney forms (also known and health care proxy or designation of guardian in the event the need arises) differ by state and ...

    Alcor: Membership Info - How to Join - Alcor Life Extension Foundation


    You can work on completing your membership paperwork while simultaneously arranging your funding. These typically take approximately one month each from  ...

    Signing Up Your Relatives - Alcor Life Extension Foundation


    Introduction. You've thought about cryonics for quite a while, analyzed the issues pro and con, checked out the organizations, finally got all the paperwork taken ...

    VISITOR COUNT up to 50 on this blog page.
    Slowly but surely, I'm getting some exposure here. I emailed a link to this page to the Huffington Post this morning and I think we jumped from the mid 20's up to 50 just today. I may start a new blog page soon since this one is getting long. I think I've made my case, anyway. Professional and semipros can probably take it from here and toss the idea around on their own, make their own inquiries and so on. I think I've demonstrated that there certainly a case to be made that its possible that Ali is frozen-- There's as good a case for him being cryopreserved (frozen) as there was for Walt Disney and Ted Williams in my opinion. 

by Rick Potvin, Tues evening, June 7, 2016. 

I'm not surprised that Trans Time, after saying that they "hope Ali was preserved" declined to comment further. It's all hush hush. It's always been that way... and I've never liked it. I thought the whole idea of cryonics was to point out how famous icons see no problem with it and to follow them as role models. Instead, every icon is hidden. Most people go underground. I still don't understand why. 

"WE SENT HIM OFF IN A VERY PEACEFUL WAY"-- another bizarre statement from another daughter.
by Rick Potvin, 8 Jun 2016, 7 am. MST. 

Who talks like this? A few days ago, one daughter of Ali, Hanna, tweeted that her father's heart continued to beat for 30 minutes after he died. What kind of situation is this? Who talks like this? Now today, another daughter Laila says "we sent him off in a peaceful way". Again, who in the world talks like this when a loved one dies? I've never heard this type of talk before. Wait! That's not entirely true. I've heard that kind of talk in the cryonics realm where life support is used on legally dead cryonics patients in the process of preparing for a cooldown to liquid nitrogen and perfusion with biological antifreeze chemicals. And the idea that "we send someone off" makes sense only in cryonics because otherwise death involves God "taking someone home" or such similar spiritual language. It's not "we" who do the "sending" but rather God who does the "taking"-- unless we're in a cryonics context. And "we" "send" someone "off" peacefully "into the far future". So again, this is what occurs to me as a cryonics-aware blogger this morning as I peruse the news on Ali. 

Good Morning America - Yahoo
Good Morning America - Yahoo - 2 days ago
Muhammad Ali's daughter Laila Ali said that her dad was surrounded by all nine 
of his children when he died and that “we sent him off in a very ...
WWAY NewsChannel 3 - 2 days ago
Telegraph.co.uk - 2 days ago

theshaderoom.com/laila-ali-remembers-dad-muhammad-ali-sent-off-peaceful -way/
My sisters were saying Islamic prayers, so it was a very peaceful time, we sent him off in a very peaceful way. And we all were there, that doesn't always happen .

Youtube video interview-- Laila does not mention the 30 minutes of the beating heart or the septic shock. She's smiling too much... and claims that Ali was "trapped in his body" given the Parkinson's-- despite the fact that it was not Parkinson's that killed him. Also, how could 9 members of the family be standing around in a life-support situation where his heart is beating for 30 minutes-- in a sense-- leaving Ali hovering between life and death? Was there a "do not rescucsitate" order? There are anomalies here that are consistent with cryonics. 

The Indian Express - 3 days ago
Muhammad Ali's details of the final moments were made public by his ... 
Muhammad Ali's heart kept beating for 30 minutes even after all other ...
The Hindu - 3 days ago
TIME - 3 days ago

WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A COMA? Isn't where the heart beats in brain dead patients? 
The clues about Ali's process of death raises questions about the nature of death -- a topic of great interest to those in cryonics. From the comments by the daughters that his heart kept beating (a sign of life, usually), and "we sent him off" (a cryonics related comment), we have indications that the attention to the details of the dying process were  heightened in Ali's case-- typical of cryonics-aware children. 

rare.us/.../muhammad-alis-daughter-on-twitter-his-heart-wouldnt-stop- beating/
3 days ago ... Hana Ali, one of Muhammad Ali's eight children, released a powerful message on Twitter in memory of her late dad. As she and her family sat ...

What Happens When Someone Is in a Coma? Someone who is in a coma is unconscious and will not respond to voices, other sounds, or any sort of activity going on nearby. ... You can't shake and wake up someone who is in a coma like you can someone who has just fallen asleep.

A distinction is made in the medical community between a coma and a medically induced coma, the former is a result of circumstances beyond the control of the medical community, while the latter is a means by which medical professionals may allow a patient's injuries to heal in a controlled environment.

The outcome for coma and vegetative state depends on the cause, location, severity and extent of neurological damage. A deeper coma alone does not necessarily mean a slimmer chance of recovery, because some people in deep coma recover well while others in a so-called milder coma sometimes fail to improve.
The most common cause of death for a person in a vegetative state is secondary infection such as pneumonia, which can occur in patients who lie still for extended periods.

See also[edit]
Look up κῶμα in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
  • Brain death, lack of activity in both cortex, and lack of brainstem function
  • Coma scale, a system to assess the severity of coma
  • Locked-in syndrome, Paralysis of most muscles, except ocular muscles of the eyes, while patient is conscious
  • Persistent vegetative state (vegetative coma), deep coma without detectable awareness. Damage to the cortex, with an intact brainstem.
  • Process Oriented Coma Work, for an approach to working with residual consciousness in comatose patients.

Feb 18, 2016 ... Boxing icon Muhammad Ali was checked back in to hospital on Thursday for the second time in less than a month for follow-up care, after ...

Feb 18, 2016 ... Boxing icon Muhammad Ali was checked back in to hospital on Thursday for the second time in less than a month for follow-up care, after ...

Muhammad Ali (legendary boxer) is in coma from last three days. what a sad news... Retweets 14; Likes 23; Asif Wassan Usman Gul Shahrukh Tariq ...

ESTATE WORTH 100 MILLION? Cryonics would definitely be interested... and battle of the relatives is consistent with cryonics.

Leila Ali is all smiles with Matt Lauer The smiles all over the face of Leila in the video interview just above struck me as very strange since when a loved one passes, the visceral sadness would normally prevent such a thing. A death normally produces dark feelings for weeks if not months. Leila look delighted. Then it struck me. She's delighted-- possibly (my speculation with no evidence)-- possibly because she's a beneficiary in a 100 million dollar estate (estimated size) plus ongoing royalties. A DEAL had been struck whereas before there was confusion. 

    News for "muhammad ali" estate

    Why Muhammad Ali's Estate Could Be Worth More After His Passing
    www.etonline.com - 13 hours ago
    Muhammad Ali cared more about helping people than growing his wealth, but
    could his estate be worth more now that he's passed? According ...

    Muhammad Ali leaves behind a tangled family legacy – and ...


    2 days ago ... Muhammad Ali with his fourth wife, Lonnie Ali, in 2005. The childhood friend isunderstood to be the executor of his estate. Photograph: Franka ...

    Could Muhammad Ali's $80m fortune become subject of bitter legal ...

    www.telegraph.co.uk/.../could-muhammad-alis-80m-fortune-become-subject -of-bitter-legal-b/

    2 days ago ... In recent years Muhammad Ali Jr, 44, has repeatedly criticised Lonnie ... $2.1million six bedroom bungalow on a gated estate made up of 72 ..

Rick's concluding remarks in this blog post re: Ali & cryonics
Wed. June 8, 2016 7:30 am. MST.

I think I've made a good initial case that supports the idea that Ali might have been cryopreserved and that we should at least research it. Updating this blog entry is becoming a little more onerous than I prefer, however, so I'll make this my last update here. Besides, this blog was meant to be directed toward "Pre arranged Last Minute" or PALM cryonics. 

Even if Ali was cryopreserved, it doesn't look like it would have been a PALM case. The Ali case looks more like Ted Williams situation-- although better planned. Then again-- who knows? Ali's estate looks like it has loose ends just like Ted Williams' estate did. In any case, I still like the threaded forum format of Network54 discussions so I'll continue my commentary on Ali's possible cryonics plan there. 

[TW TALK ...+ Muhammad Ali ]

A link to TW TALK can be found at the top of this blog as well as immediately above. Thanks for watching. -RP


Rick said...

Ok, no comments.

Anonymous said...

I'm very impressed with all of your research. You make a very convincing case, and maybe one day we will look back at this blog as a great discovery.

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